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Seth
24-01-2008, 06:54 PM
Take Conrad Black for example. What is the purpose of incarcerating such?

Black is not a threat to the safety of society, so why should the taxpayers shell out big $$$ to keep him incarcerated?

Society would be better served if such an individual remained in the free world, but had to fore go most of his assets to children's charities.

Comments?

BTW- I'm thinking about starting a thread on Robert Latamir. Anyone know who he is? Well put it this way: In our society we will mercy kill an animal with hip problems. But when it comes to a human, capitalism punishes such behavior despite a fellow human that is BEGGING to be Euthanised. That, along with the education system, are very good clues to the cause of human suffering. In one word: "capitalism" (money over all else).

Like I've said before, democracy my ass. Most countries that claim a democracy are a dictatorship in disguise.

JEBWrench
24-01-2008, 07:41 PM
What assets? Lord Black is broke. :p

Now, as a fellow Canadian, I have to point out that the only people who claim our Constitutional Monarchy (and yes, that's the proper term) is a democracy are politicians who are saying so so that the lowest common denominator can say, "Okay, freedom. Cool."

What is democracy? According to the etymology, from the greek Demos Kratos, it's "Power of people." The idea that every person gets input in the affairs of state.

This is a very very bad idea. ;)

To quote Uncle Winnie (as my friends and I used to call Winston Churchill): "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

Now, on to Robert Latimer. Capitalism isn't punishing him. He was a coward who never gave his invalid daughter a chance to succeed. If he's some kind of hero, then why did he wait to tell the truth about killing his daughter until after they found out he lied?

Was his daughter suffering? Yes. But HE was the one who wanted her to die, not her.

Not only that, but he simply did not accept ALL the available treatment options to her before killing her. He didn't want his daughter to have a feeding tube, because HE thought it was too intruisive. It's as if he just wanted to end HIS frustration, rather than giving his daughter a chance.

Seth
25-01-2008, 05:42 AM
What assets? Lord Black is broke. :p

I'm thinking you were being sarcastic, as a man like CB would have all sorts of "off shore" investments. In other words, Switzerland would welcome him.

Now, as a fellow Canadian, I have to point out that the only people who claim our Constitutional Monarchy (and yes, that's the proper term) is a democracy are politicians who are saying so so that the lowest common denominator can say, "Okay, freedom. Cool."

Agreed.


What is democracy? According to the etymology, from the greek Demos Kratos, it's "Power of people." The idea that every person gets input in the affairs of state.

This is a very very bad idea. ;)

Again, your :) confuses your intent.


To quote Uncle Winnie (as my friends and I used to call Winston Churchill): "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."

As above. If you have something to say, then please do so without quoting someone else or making the reader study cryptology :)

Now, on to Robert Latimer. Capitalism isn't punishing him. He was a coward who never gave his invalid daughter a chance to succeed. If he's some kind of hero, then why did he wait to tell the truth about killing his daughter until after they found out he lied?

Once again, killing a pet for hip problems is legal.

Never gave her a chance to succeed? How long could a loving parent allow their child to go through endless suffering? Oh but wait, mercy killing a pet is legal. Are you getting my point?

Was his daughter suffering? Yes. But HE was the one who wanted her to die, not her.

Not only that, but he simply did not accept ALL the available treatment options to her before killing her. He didn't want his daughter to have a feeding tube, because HE thought it was too intruisive. It's as if he just wanted to end HIS frustration, rather than giving his daughter a chance.

"Rather than giving his daughter a chance"

Your statements on Latimer show that you know little of the case, or ignore otherwise.

Let's get down to reality jeb:

In my teenager years, I dated a girl who had a job taking care of of disabled people. One in particular had no use of his arms or legs, **** and ****ed himself, and his tongue just flopped out of his mouth. Above and beyond that, he was constantly experiencing obviously painful seizures.

The site of his being disturbed me to such to a degree that I sated that such should be mercy killed. Her response was typical: "He may still want to live". To which i responded: "but he may want to die".

That response is typical of other situations I've encountered in which the care giver proclaims, "Some say that the mentally handicapped are closer to God". To which I respond, " If such was the case, then you would have no problem with trading lives?"

The silent response is profound.

AdvancedSetup
25-01-2008, 06:02 AM
Well don't know either one, but for the last one. If I were in such a disabled state I certainly would not want to live (even if science could find a cure and make me better some day). Why would I want to live any longer than I had to in such a miserable state.

Also can't speak for you guys, but I certainly would not want to place such a burden on another human being either. Just let me die with some dignity.

Wolfeymole
25-01-2008, 07:49 AM
In my teenager years, I dated a girl who had a job taking care of of disabled people. One in particular had no use of his arms or legs, s*** and ****ed himself, and his tongue just flopped out of his mouth. Above and beyond that, he was constantly experiencing obviously painful seizures.

The site of his being disturbed me to such to a degree that I sated that such should be mercy killed. Her response was typical: "He may still want to live". To which i responded: "but he may want to die".
As part of this purportedly socialist governments radical thinking all free to reside care homes, non criminal mental institutions etc were closed under the "Care in the Community" policy.
This was in reality a cost cutting venture that eventually cost more to implement than it saved, a typical New Labour way of thinking.

Now when I go for a pint in my local I have to endure a boat load of gibbering drooling nigh upon brain dead individuals wheeled around by people much the same, except the "Carers" are on about 10 an hour.

I have to question what quality of life these people have when they are totally unable to care for themselves in any shape or form. Never mind being unable to even wipe their own **** they cannot even rationalize. What is the point in them existing? To me, none.
Please don't start saying; Oooo Wolfeys going down the road of aryan thinking here, as that's ********.
To me it is our guilt and embarrassment that allows this situation to continue.

I have no doubt that the Pro-Life cats will be on my case shortly, either that or the Judean Peoples Front. It could even be the "Save Kangeroos with Piles" lobby.

Anything for a good cause ya know, yeah right.


If you want to consider proper white collar crime check out the wily rogues who ran Guinness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_share-trading_fraud)

Seth
25-01-2008, 07:00 PM
It probably wasn't a good idea to mention Latimer in this white collar thread. But meh, let's go with it.

Remember that "disabled" guy I spoke of? (Note that disabled is a light term because imo he was in hell). Anyway, I forgot to mention his normal facial expression. To be blunt, his facial expression looked liked someone was pulling out his finger nails.

Like the dog example, he has no voice to speak. Compassion requires that a decision be made for him. This decision is based on observation such as Ron said: "What would I want if I were him". As such, if it wasn't for "the law" (now-a-days that means money and job security), I would have mercy killed him on the spot.

Latimer and Kovarsky are the furthest thing from "cowards". Kovarsky (sp) helped those to fulfill their request of death. How dare anyone be so arrogant and self righteous to charge and incarcerate a fellow human that chooses death. That is the epitome of all that disgusts me.

On white collar:

Let's take Black for example and assume he is still a billionaire.

He isn't a threat to the physical safety of society. Putting him (and the like) in prison is not in the best interest of society. It would cost the tax payers a great deal of money, but show no positive result. For Black, punish him via finances. Take 90% of his assets and donate it to a good cause.

JEBWrench
25-01-2008, 08:04 PM
Latimer is a coward in my book - and not because I'm a pro-life activist, because I'm not by any means. However, it's impossible, in my opinion, to say what she may have become had she been given a chance at life.

As far as my comments - I have a tendency to overuse smilies. I apologize.

The use of an amusing quote, I just do to add levity. My point is that average human being is barely capable of making their own decisions, let alone government decisions.

As far as mercy killing those wanting to die, what if that decision to die were a spur-of-the-moment act than a genuine wish? Also, how much pain does someone have to be in to be a mercy killing?

Also, is it mental function or physical function that should dictate such things?

Edit to avoid double-posting:

I had to dig this one up about "dying with dignity".


There's no such thing! Our bodies break down, sometimes when we're 90, sometimes before we're even born, but it always happens and there's never any dignity in it! I don't care if you can walk, see, wipe your own *expletive deleted*... it's always ugly, always! You can live with dignity; you can't die with it!
Now, back to (in?) Black.

I actually quite like your suggestion for white collar crime - though it gets a little dodgy in which good cause the assets go to, the intent is good. However, I think part of the point of white-collar incarceration is to serve as an example to other white-collar criminals.