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Seth
03-04-2008, 07:21 PM
"School" should be a fun learning experience for children. Yet in my armchair research (asking the kids!), most kids hate school and have become bitter and destructive for being forced to endure and swallow such "education".

What do you want to be when you grow up?, asks the teacher. Since "little Johnny" has been taught nothing of independent thought (self employment), but rather the robotic BS of such things such as "doctor" (Glorified pharmaceutical drug dealer that has to examine the most disgusting physical problems you can think of..How fun!), OR a lawyer (A judicial system that has become so complex and twisted that the average working tax payer cannot defend him/her self for fear of not putting a dot on that "i". The "Lawyers" will charge you $300.00 an hour for doing so.

See what I'm getting at?

"Civilization" as we currently experience it, is not much more than 5% of the population financially and immorally exploiting the other 95%.

help4me
04-04-2008, 05:00 AM
My current occupation... Preschool Teacher ;)

Seth... shall I start my rant now... or shall I wait a few days? :D

Wolfeymole
04-04-2008, 04:54 PM
Rant away possum. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/rant.gif

Seth and I will just get http://deephousepage.com/smilies/alc.gif

JEBWrench
04-04-2008, 07:43 PM
Education can be engaging, dynamic, and 'fun', and kids would still hate it. Because - and this may be a bit shocking - children aren't all the same. What's fun for "Johnny" might not be fun for "Jane". What's fun for "Jane" might not be fun for "Alejandro". What's fun for "Alejandro" might not be fun for anybody else.

Who gets left out in the "fun learning experience"? You can't custom-educate every child.

Watch this next comment, because oooh, I'm a gonna get killed on this one. :p

A good many kids are lazy. Even if a "learning experience" should be fun for them, making them think is going to irritate them.

Give your average child the choice between reading a book and doing nothing.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts they'll take nothing.

So let's just ditch that whole reading thing.
Arithmetic? That's not fun. Throw that out too.
Why would you need to learn spelling? Grammar? Punctuation? The computer can handle that. Let's forget that too.

You need to have structure in education, or else, kids won't be bothered to learn a **** thing.

Wolfeymole
04-04-2008, 07:58 PM
I could have sworn I've seen this sack of **** somewhere before. :confused:

JEBWrench
05-04-2008, 12:46 AM
But it's a fun sack. :p

Seth
05-04-2008, 04:28 AM
Education can be engaging, dynamic, and 'fun', and kids would still hate it.

:confused: No child would hate such positive characteristics.

The education system (corporate brain washing) provides "education" which is not engaging, dynamic, and "fun", and that's the exact reason why kids hate it.


+ Because - and this may be a bit shocking - children aren't all the same. What's fun for "Johnny" might not be fun for "Jane". What's fun for "Jane" might not be fun for "Alejandro". What's fun for "Alejandro" might not be fun for anybody else.

My point exactly JEB:)


Who gets left out in the "fun learning experience"? You can't custom-educate every child.

It's not a matter of "can't", but rather a matter of "won't".


Watch this next comment, because oooh, I'm a gonna get killed on this one. :p

Meh...just give her a foot rub and she'll forgive you. I've performed that repair thousands of times. lol



A good many kids are lazy. Even if a "learning experience" should be fun for them, making them think is going to irritate them.



Give your average child the choice between reading a book and doing nothing.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts they'll take nothing.

I agree. Give the child a book on how to build a bridge across a creek and they'll probably toss it aside in said creek. But, take the kid and that book to the creek , along with the building materials, and they'll be in their "learning" glory.



So let's just ditch that whole reading thing.
Arithmetic? That's not fun. Throw that out too.
Why would you need to learn spelling? Grammar? Punctuation? The computer can handle that. Let's forget that too.

Unless the child wants to be a arithmetical scholar (cab driver) anything beyond basic arithmetic is a waste of time and detrimental to the child's potential.

Spelling , grammer, puncutaion? Are you kidding me? The English rules of such are totally illogical and inconsistant. Howver, since "proper" English is part and parcel of a succesful adult, then such should be applied.


You need to have structure in education, or else, kids won't be bothered to learn a **** thing.

A backhand is "discipline" and a forehand is "abuse".

This isn't the year 1601.

"Structure" in this regard is the reason why kids are using a baseball bat to break car windows instead of hitting the base ball.

Please God, save me from your followers. (Not meant for you JEB)

petef
05-04-2008, 11:46 AM
Seth, I'm following this thread and agree with just about everythng you say.
So what is the solution? Below are some possibilities: :)

SCHOOLS

- Encourage your own kids to obtain a GED and get out of the
public schools as soon as possible and into the work force or
other educational programs.

- Home school your own kids.

- Private school for your own kids.

- Choose not to have any kids and not have to deal with it.

- Join the local school board and try to change things or
to gain insight about how the shcool system became so bad.


AFTER SCHOOL

- Avoid professionals that charge outragous fees; Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants,
Realestate Agents or anyone that you feel overcharges unjustly. Use Interent and
read books to educate yourself so that you become self sufficient and you reduce
the demand for overpriced services of these professionals.

- Take personal responsibily for yourself by living an honest and healthy lifestlye
so that you reduce the need for doctors and lawyers.

- Learn about staying healthy through proper diet and nutrition.

- Get involved in local politics. At bare minimum, attend your local town
meeetings so that you know what the current issues are.

- Quit all vises such as smoking, drugs, and alcohol which all have great
potential to enslave you, rob you of your wealth and destroy you.

- Don't allow yourself to be a victim of the system by thinking there is
nothing you can do. The power is with the people to change things.

With all that said, if the majority of people would do half those things,
we could make a MAJOR impact on society and the professional services
that are currently taking advantage of the majority of people.

See Seth, those at the top of the chain have too much to lose if the
people did all the things outlined above, so it logical to assume that
there could be an organized effort to keep the people dumbed down.

HOWERVER, for the first time in the history of man, the technology
exists that allows the free flow of information enabling the common
man/women to educate themselves in areas that were impossible
to know about in the past.

Bottom line.. The technology now exists to make man free or to
enslave man. We as common people are responsible for our own
destiny. I'm doing my part by practicing what I preach. :)
I encourage others to do the same.

---pete---

help4me
05-04-2008, 07:26 PM
:confused: No child would hate such positive characteristics. Oh yes they would. Kids are like little adults (:p) in that they don't like being "made" to do something! It is possible to engage kids for a certain amount of time in activities that are fun and educational, but not every moment of every day. Trust me... I know. Teachers are human too ya know... and teachers have off days too. Not to mention outside factors affect both teacher and student. Little Johnny's parents might being going through a divorce, and little Susie's house is in turmoil because they are about to be evicted, while little Tony's father just got put in jail, and little Jeff's brother has been diagnosed with cancer, and little Rebecca's mom just had a baby, and little Nancy's dad beat up her mom, and little Tommy hasn't had anything to eat because mom was passed out drunk. I could go on because there's oh so much more.... and those example are right out of my own class. Now...let's look at the teacher here.... let's see... this morning she had to get her own kids off to school, the car wouldn't start, she did remember to take the stack of bills with her so she could perhaps pay them on her lunch break (if she gets to take one), she got things ready for dinner that night before she left the house, managed to get a ride to work, and that's all before 8AM. Once at work, there's a pile of paperwork to be done, report cards to be filled out, and things to get ready for the day's lessons. But a co-worker called in sick so Ms. Teacher now has to monitor the kids until the first morning bell rings. Ms. Teacher is also concerned about she is going to pay the $800 medical bill she got in the mail yesterday, as well as all the other bills, she's so financially strapped that she's about to lose her house, and again the list goes on and on. Ms. Teacher knows that in many of her student's lives she is the only positive, the only constant. And Ms. Teacher is a good teacher, and devotes herself to her students, and her family, often to the point of ignoring her own needs. All for less than $15,000 a year.


The education system (corporate brain washing) provides "education" which is not engaging, dynamic, and "fun", and that's the exact reason why kids hate it.
It is not the EXACT reason why kids hate it. They hate it because it's a "have to" thing. Much like "clean your room" or "wash the dishes". Not everything in life is going to be fun, but that's no reason to do it poorly. Now is the prime time for children to learn that all important work ethic. Make that life ethic. Do your best no matter what. There are things that you must learn, and they just aren't going to be FUN.


It's not a matter of "can't", but rather a matter of "won't".
That's **** and you know it. How the heck is a teacher supposed to custom teach every student? I do the best I can, but I have rules I must go by. We do have the practice of individualizing for every student, and we do the best we can. But to say "won't" is a slap in the face to those teachers who do indeed try. Teachers are people too ya know... we do have lives outside of school, just like everybody else. We have worries and struggles too. How much of yourself do you invest in your job? How much of your heart and soul do you put into your work? I promise you that good teachers worry about their students long after the school day is over. When the student hurts, so does the teacher. When the student succeeds, the teacher celebrates... not because SHE taught that student something, but because the student learned something. It's always about the student, and never about how good of a job the teacher did teaching.

It is about "can't"!!! Schools are under funded, and teachers underpaid, yet the teacher still gives it her all even when it's not "fun". Often times teachers spend money from their own pocket in order to provide better learning experiences for students. Money that teachers really don't have to spare, yet they find a way to do it anyway. How do I know???
Because I AM one of those teachers. I have limited school funds to spend on my classroom for the things I need to make it "fun" for my little ones. Therefore, I am always looking for bargains and such to purchase toys, games, and other such novelty items that I think my kids would enjoy and might get them to exercise their mind in a different direction.


Meh...just give her a foot rub and she'll forgive you. I've performed that repair thousands of times.

lol Can I get a neck rub instead? :p I have a killer headache.


I agree. Give the child a book on how to build a bridge across a creek and they'll probably toss it aside in said creek. But, take the kid and that book to the creek , along with the building materials, and they'll be in their "learning" glory.
You think so eh? Possibly... but who's going to pay for that? Who's going to buy the materials? Who's going to fund the "field trip"?

Here, we have programs that kids can be involved in where they do build houses, and then sell them to fund the program. We also have a program with cars... the kids repair the cars, and the sell them to fund the program. Great programs, but few in number because such programs cost a lot of money to keep them going. Not to mention the liability involved. What if a kid gets hurt?

Next... your idea might put most of the kids in their "learning glory", but again that's not all of them. I have a kid in my class that can tell you how a lightbulb works, but couldn't figure out how to flip the switch to turn the lights on. For her... hands on "learning" doesn't work. She needs the text book learning in order for things to make sense to her. For most people you seemingly have to "dumb" things down for them to make sense. For her, I need to smarten them up for her to grasp even the most rudimentary concepts.


Unless the child wants to be a arithmetical scholar (cab driver) anything beyond basic arithmetic is a waste of time and detrimental to the child's potential.
This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. By limiting a child's exposure to learning "because they won't need it" limits their potential. If a child is never exposed to anything beyond the basics, then how will they ever find out what they are good at? Not going beyond the basics is detrimental to a child's potential.


Spelling , grammar, punctuation? Are you kidding me? The English rules of such are totally illogical and inconsistent. However, since "proper" English is part and parcel of a successful adult, then such should be applied.
Exactly! One must be able to present one's ideas in a manner that is easily understood by the majority. But that's not how most kid's talk. However, by knowing multiple ways to do things allows every person a choice. If you don't know better, then you don't have a choice. But if you do have the knowledge, then you CAN choose whether or not to put that knowledge into practice.


"Structure" in this regard is the reason why kids are using a baseball bat to break car windows instead of hitting the base ball. Again this is ****. Kid's break windows because they haven't been taught not to. Because the system says if you correct your kids you are abusing them. Many child psychologists say don't scold your child for writing on the wall. Praise him for his artwork and then give him paper to nurture his creative side. Kids are wise to the fact that if their parent's scold them too harshly, then they can report their parents for child abuse.


Please God, save me from your followers. (Not meant for you JEB)


A word of advice to any and all people .... work in the system before you start complaining about it. I promise that until you do, you haven't got a clue as to how deep the rabbit hole goes. You have no idea how hard it is to be a good teacher, you have no idea of the rules teachers must follow, and still turn out "good" students, nor do many of you have a clue to how kids operate. Take a child development class, go volunteer in a classroom. Really get to know what goes on behind the scene. Walk in a teacher's shoes for awhile. See what she sees. School isn't just academics anymore. Because of today's society, the classroom is a place for behavior management, emotional counseling, social development, and meeting a child's basic needs (even to the point of feeding them), all before academics can even take place.

After reading the few posts in this thread (some of which I may have missed because I took so long to reply), not one of you (JEB included) has a clue to what school has become, or what children need. First and foremost you must meet a child's basic needs before they can even begin to learn. A hungry child will not be able to focus. An abused child will find it hard to try. A homeless child is more concerned about where they will sleep than what sound the letter "A" makes. A child whose father is in jail is too worried about where daddy is to focus on much of anything. A child whose mom just had a baby is afraid of being forgotten and is going to act out to make sure they are seen. A child whose mom was passed out drunk, darn sure didn't get to bed on time and is going to be too tired to get much out of "fun learning." So a teacher must feed the hungry, love the abused, comfort the homeless, calm the worried, praise the forgotten, provide rest to the weary, and somehow get all of her students to believe in themselves, all before she can teach them anything other than those life skills mentioned.

How many of you do that everyday at your job?

JEBWrench
05-04-2008, 07:48 PM
And for my next sure-fire enraging comment:

Everything is the parents' fault. Or the teachers'. Or the school board. Or the politicians'. Never, EVER is a child at fault for their own inability to learn.

It's simply impossible for a child to be in any way responsible for their own inaction or action.

It seems to me that's the kind of attitude being endoctrinated into the minds of children - that someone else is always at fault, and if they struggle at something, not to worry, as that problem isn't theirs. Always, always pass the blame to someone else.



And Bonnie, I'll be sure to give your post a thorough analysis and dissection. After you get your neck rub. :p

help4me
05-04-2008, 07:52 PM
And for my next sure-fire enraging comment:

Everything is the parents' fault. Or the teachers'. Or the school board. Or the politicians'. Never, EVER is a child at fault for their own inability to learn.

It's simply impossible for a child to be in any way responsible for their own inaction or action.

It seems to me that's the kind of attitude being endoctrinated into the minds of children - that someone else is always at fault, and if they struggle at something, not to worry, as that problem isn't theirs. Always, always pass the blame to someone else.



And Bonnie, I'll be sure to give your post a thorough analysis and dissection. After you get your neck rub. :p

I'll be sure to do the same to this post of yours.... after that neck rub of course ;)

Wolfeymole
05-04-2008, 09:04 PM
Seth, are you a Teacher?

If so, extol the virtues of the American way of teaching and the issues involved.

If not then be quiet ;)

Good debate is crucial in any section of our lives, but if one has no experience of a situation first hand then how can a person offer an opinion?
We as individuals can look at a situation but without all information we cannot offer practicable advice.

petef
05-04-2008, 11:44 PM
School isn't just academics anymore. Because of today's society, the classroom is a place for behavior management, emotional counseling, social development, and meeting a child's basic needs (even to the point of feeding them), all before academics can even take place. ...........
....................... A child whose father is in jail is too worried about where daddy is to focus on much of anything. A child whose mom just had a baby is afraid of being forgotten and is going to act out to make sure they are seen. A child whose mom was passed out drunk, darn sure didn't get to bed on time and is going to be too tired to get much out of "fun learning." So a teacher must feed the hungry, love the abused, comfort the homeless, calm the worried, praise the forgotten, provide rest to the weary, and somehow get all of her students to believe in themselves, all before she can teach them anything other than those life skills mentioned.


There is a reverberating message in your lengthy post indicating that a teacher
is requred to be many other things before being a teacher and that some kids have
so many problems that it's very difficult or impossible to just teach academics.

As I read your post another idea kept reverberating in my mind that goes back
to the 1960's when I was in school. The concept is to group kids by their ability
to learn and their willingness to learn. I believe if we went back to that concept
it would solve many of the problems you speak of for the majority of classes and
a minoriry of classes in any given school will contain the "problem children".

In my opinion, it's not the job of a school teacher to be a social worker, or
moral compass, or baby sitter and prison guard. If a child is disturbed and
being disruptive or chronically not able to concentrate for any reason, they
should not be able to negatively impact the students who are well adjusted
and able to learn.

Where the school systems have gone wrong over the years is all this political
correctness and being so sensitive as so not to hurt anyone's feelings. These
concepts were unheard of in the 1960s and in prior years when the schools
were more about academics than social programs. Schools need to go back to
being schools and those not able to learn or disipline themselves ought to be
grouped together so that they only impede others like themselves and allow
well disiplined students to advance at a faster pace.

Teachers should also be sorted out on their ability to teach acedemics and
the advanced students ought to be rewarded with the very best acedemic
teachers with a record of success. The teachers that are less acedemicly
skilled but more socialy skilled, out to be assigned to the classes where the
students are less advanced and less self-disiplined.

---pete---

help4me
06-04-2008, 12:39 AM
There is a reverberating message in your lengthy post indicating that a teacher
is requred to be many other things before being a teacher and that some kids have
so many problems that it's very difficult or impossible to just teach academics.

As I read your post another idea kept reverberating in my mind that goes back
to the 1960's when I was in school. The concept is to group kids by their ability
to learn and their willingness to learn. I believe if we went back to that concept
it would solve many of the problems you speak of for the majority of classes and
a minoriry of classes in any given school will contain the "problem children".

In my opinion, it's not the job of a school teacher to be a social worker, or
moral compass, or baby sitter and prison guard. If a child is disturbed and
being disruptive or chronically not able to concentrate for any reason, they
should not be able to negatively impact the students who are well adjusted
and able to learn.

Where the school systems have gone wrong over the years is all this political
correctness and being so sensitive as so not to hurt anyone's feelings. These
concepts were unheard of in the 1960s and in prior years when the schools
were more about academics than social programs. Schools need to go back to
being schools and those not able to learn or disipline themselves ought to be
grouped together so that they only impede others like themselves and allow
well disiplined students to advance at a faster pace.

Teachers should also be sorted out on their ability to teach acedemics and
the advanced students ought to be rewarded with the very best acedemic
teachers with a record of success. The teachers that are less acedemicly
skilled but more socialy skilled, out to be assigned to the classes where the
students are less advanced and less self-disiplined.

---pete---

For the student who has many issues.... if the teacher does not love them, then who will?

help4me
06-04-2008, 12:39 AM
Seth, are you a Teacher?

If so, extol the virtues of the American way of teaching and the issues involved.

If not then be quiet ;)

Good debate is crucial in any section of our lives, but if one has no experience of a situation first hand then how can a person offer an opinion?
We as individuals can look at a situation but without all information, without all information we cannot offer practicable advice.

Step away from the beer Bob dear ;)

petef
06-04-2008, 08:07 AM
For the student who has many issues.... if the teacher does not love them, then who will?

I hear you, but the point is, it's not the teacher's responsibility.
It might even be inappropriate and unprofessional to become
emotionally involved with a student.

---pete---

Wolfeymole
06-04-2008, 09:38 AM
Step away from the beer Bob dear ;)

Yes love, sorry love. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif

help4me
06-04-2008, 03:17 PM
I hear you, but the point is, it's not the teacher's responsibility.
It might even be inappropriate and unprofessional to become
emotionally involved with a student.

---pete---

LOL... that has a bad sound to it. :p


I guess what I meant is more along the lines of caring about them in a motherly way. Or something more akin to the sweet old fashioned lady that dotes on all the kids in the neighborhood. The kind old lady that seems to be a grandma to everybody. That's more what I mean by "love" in this sense.

And you are right, it's not the teacher's responsibility, but more often than not teachers are becoming more and more than teachers. I have heard parents say more than once "When my kid is at school, they are the school's problem." No one else seems to be "teaching" these kids how to function in society, so the teachers have to.

At my school, we do cooking activities with the kids. Mainly to teach them about food and nutrition, but also so that the little ones might be able to fix themselves something to eat when they are at home and mom is passed out. Our cooking activities include such things as how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, how much milk goes in a bowl of cereal, so on and so forth. Yes... I have had kids in my class where the only time they get to eat is at school. Now please tell me... if the parents fail, whose job is it to "teach" these kids life skills?

Do you see now why the basic needs must be met before learning can begin?

help4me
06-04-2008, 03:18 PM
Yes love, sorry love. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jackson.gif

Ooooo....dancing :D Care to cut a rug? ;)

Seth
06-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Pete,

I did look into home schooling. In Canada, you still have to teach exactly what kids are being taught when in school. I would think that's similar to other countries such as the US and the UK.

Imagine that? A "democracy" in which it is a crime for an educated and concerned parent to determine their child's education. A democracy in which the government's employer (us), have no ability to fire said employee for four years.

Bonnie,

The point of my statement doesn't have anything to do with the teachers, but rather the blatantly archaic, generic, and detrimental education system.

For example, my daughter is 12 and being forced to learn useless facts such as the names of each Prime Minister, or Algebra in which 99.9% of the population will never use. Most of what is being taught at those grade levels fall into the above categories. That's exactly why her and her friends hate school.

I suggest an education system in which practical life skills and knowledge is taught, as well as more emphasis on physical health and allowing time for the child to pursue their own interests.

Seth
06-04-2008, 03:23 PM
At my school, we do cooking activities with the kids. Mainly to teach them about food and nutrition, but also so that the little ones might be able to fix themselves something to eat when they are at home and mom is passed out. Our cooking activities include such things as how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, how much milk goes in a bowl of cereal, so on and so forth.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're teaching the kids basic life skills such as nutrition, cooking, numbers, colors, etc. That's practical and useful knowledge. So why does all that go to hell in the middle to upper grades?

help4me
06-04-2008, 04:36 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You're teaching the kids basic life skills such as nutrition, cooking, numbers, colors, etc. That's practical and useful knowledge. So why does all that go to hell in the middle to upper grades?

Because parents and school boards want our kids to score high on tests so that our schools can look like they are competing with schools in other countries, namely Japan. Americans want their kids to be as smart as the tests show other kids are in other countries. Thus the need for "useless" facts.

On the flip side.... those things should be taught. Kids need exposure to everything in order for them to have a well rounded education, and thus have more choices available to them. And I promise you.... you use basic algebra more than you think you do. ;)

College is more of a time for choosing your own educational track. And because of the "useless" knowledge kids were exposed to in lower grades, they will have more experience to draw on to select a course of education that is better geared toward their interests.

As for past Prime Ministers.... why shouldn't they have to know that? If you do not learn your history, you are doomed to repeat it. Your daughter should have to know about her country's history in order to make her country's future a success. Just like a science experiment... if no one knows what's already been tried, then you will never move closer to finding a solution. Basically you will always be stuck at square one.

At age 12, kids may have a general idea of where they want to go in life. But if they are never exposed to anything beyond the basics, then how will they know for sure which direction they are going. At age 12 I wanted to be a psychologist. But now, because of my "new" exposure to computers, I have discovered that my passion is web design and photo restoration and such. I wonder sometimes how much more I would have learned if I would have had a computer at home as a kid, or a better funded computer department at the school I attended. (granted this back in the day of FORTRAN :p ) But you get my point. You won't know if you like apples or not unless you eat an apple!

And... the more knowledge you have the better. You never know when you might need obscure knowledge. Why limit yourself with the idea... I'm never going to use it anyway? You can't know for sure that you won't.

Many times in general conversation, I have wished I had a better understanding of quantum physics. Yes, general conversation and debates. How is that practical in day to day life? It's not... other than for conversation.

And... what if the world went nuts, and there were no computers or electronics... wouldn't those that knew how to do things the "old fashioned way" fare better? Most of today's society operates with ready made, user friendly, most of it done for you, technology. With your line of thinking, most computer users shouldn't have more than a minimal understanding of computers. They aren't going to actually use any more tech knowledge than that are they? But I bet it would make computer repair a whole lot easier if everyone who used a computer knew more than how to turn the dang thing on.

Thus it is with education... you just might need more than the basics.

I would rather my child have a head full of knowledge and only use 10% of it rather than not have the information they need.